The Adoption of Fixed Surnames & DNA

I was a little confused by the DNA matches for Roger Forgey. Most of the matches didn't share the same surname?? You would expect to find only same surname matches given the fact that the Y chromosome is only passed from fathers to sons. Well after doing some research at Family Tree DNA and elsewhere I found that these matches indicate a relationship before fixed surnames were adopted.

Not being clear about when surnames were first adopted I did some research. It seems that before 1350 many common people did not have fixed inherited surnames.The aristocracy was the first group to adopt surnames. Taxation made more precise identification necessary and was a catalyst for the development of surnames . The growth of the military and civil bureaucracy led to the standardization of surnames.
A few of the non Forgey surname matches were only two or three markers off at 37 markers. This leads me to believe that the Forgeys adopted a fixed surname relatively late. The lowlands Scots, as the Forgeys were, tended to adopt fixed surnames later than those in Southern England. They may have adopted a fixed surname in the 1400 or 1500's or even later. The first appearance of the name Ferguson (the root name of Forgey in Scotland) seems to have been on a 1466 land record (the 15th century seems to be when Ferguson was first adopted). This record transferred land from John Ferguson to his son. Ferguson appears to be a patronymic name referring to men who were sons of a Fergus. Previous to the  adoption of the surname Ferguson they were referred to only as "sons of Fergus."
 In the past people changed surnames for various reasons,and early names were not always carried down in families. An example apprentices sometimes took their masters surnames. Many of the earliest surnames were not inherited by descendants and died out.

Varieties and synonymes of
surnames and Christian names in Ireland

I think previous family researchers miscalculated the date of the adoption of our family name. Some felt that the Forgies came from Normandy with William the Conqueror in 1066, and the name dated from that time period. This seems unlikely. Most of those who came with William the Conqueror had surnames which related to the place they came from in France, and were preceded by "de" meaning "of". I have not found any references to de Forgies in western Scotland. Most experts on the subject agree Forgey is a variant of the surname Ferguson. As a matter of fact a couple of Fergusons were close DNA matches. So I tend to agree that at least in our line the name derives from Ferguson. It is likely that there are other origins for this surname in other places. Our family origins seemed to be rooted in Scotland; which is supported by the DNA testing. There may also be a French origin of the name? The William Forgey line which settled in Allegheny County, PA in the late 18th Century claimed French ancestry. This illustrates the difficulty which arises when trying to trace someone based solely on their surname. Surnames change over time. Similar surnames may be used in several countries.So sharing a surname does not represent proof of a blood relationship.

Progressive Men of the State of Montana Volume 2

Journey of Man: The Genetic Journey of the Forgeys/Forgy & Forgies

The only Forgey marker we have so far is M223 (click to enlarge map)

We now have the predicted Haplo type for Roger Forgey and Wayne Forgie's lines. It's haplo group I2b1, M223. This is what wikipedia has to say about it: "Former I2b1 in the Y2010 tree. I2a2a (M223) has a peak in Germany and another in eastern Sweden, but also appears in Russia, Greece, Italy and around the Black Sea.[21] Haplogroup I2a2a has been found in over 4% of the population only in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, England (not including Wales or Cornwall), Scotland, and the southern tips of Sweden and Norway in Northwest Europe; the provinces of Normandy, Maine, Anjou, and Perche in northwestern France; the province of Provence in southeastern France; the regions of Tuscany,Umbria, and Latium in Italy; and Moldavia and the area around Russia's Ryazan Oblast and Republic of Mordovia in Eastern Europe. Of historical note, both haplogroups I1 and I2b appear at a low frequency in the historical regions of Bithynia and Galatia in Turkey, possibly descendants of the Varangians, who are historically recorded to have invaded those parts of Anatolia from the 9th to 11th centuries."  
The I2b sub group, called Isles, is found almost exclusively in the British Isles with a heavy concentration in Scotland.  
The marker 223 also is interesting.  "The founder of this marker lived somewhere in the northwestern regions of the European continent, perhaps even in what seems a very unlikely place: the bed of what is now the North Sea." This place is now referred to as Doggerland by scientists. As stated  previously it's now located in the North Sea.  Here is a description  “…Doggerland would have covered an area about the size of England, a tundra landscape across which vast herds of reindeer and horses plodded, where salmon spawned in its prolific rivers. As the climate warmed, oak woodland colonized the valleys and hills. Red deer, roe deer and wild pig replaced the barren-ground reindeer. It remained an ideal hunting ground….+ http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~robert/TheFirstPeople.htm
One of my all time favorite TV programs is the Journey of Man which I embedded below (to see all of the parts just click the the Youtube link). I think this show helps put the Forgey DNA results into context.

Y DNA12 Markers and 25 to GO!

We received Roger Forgey's 12 marker test results last Friday (still waiting for the last 25 markers). He was a perfect 12 of 12 match with someone currently using the Forgie variant spelling of the name. At the 12 marker stage if you match with a person with the same surname or variant then you are considered to be related. This person originally tested as a part of the Genographic Project sponsored by the National Geographic Society. He is currently upgrading his 12 marker test and testing with Family Tree DNA. It's puzzling that there is no match with the Forgys (Iowa, USA) who also first settled in Cumberland County, PA like my family.  Since only one person tested it is possible that a non paternity event occurred and more testing needs to be done?  A test is in the works right now for my Uncle Charles Forgey.

Oddly there were also two other matches with men with different surnames. If these results hold up at 37 markers we will have to compare notes to see where we may be related?

The Forgie match would mean that our family descends from the Forgey/ Forgies of Co. Down Ireland. The shared ancestor would have been many generations ago since my Forgey family came to this Country about 1767 and our match's family came much later about 1870. I had some suspicions that the family had descended from the Co. Down Forgey/Forgie line. It looked like a migration from Down to Armagh took place. It did not look like the Forgey family was in the Armagh area very long. I couldn't find any burial records, births, marriages or deaths there. It looks like the family resided there briefly in the 1760's just before emigrating.

Varieties and synonymes of surnames and Christian names in Ireland

Varieties and synonymes of
surnames and Christian names in Ireland

 According to a report by Robert E. Matheson, Registrar General 1901, the spelling Forgey was common in Warren Point, Co. Down. We believe my ancestor Andrew Forgey is listed on the 1766 Religious Census for Ireland. He seems to be listed in Creggan Parish, Armagh along with his father-in-law Hugh Reynolds. This area being only 12 miles from Warren Point Co. Down; so it seems like there may be some relationship? A James Forgy also listed on that Census did not emigrate to America. I do wonder if some of his descendants settled in Warren Point Co. Down?

The ancestors of our match lived in Millisle, Parish Donaghadee, Co. Down. This area is on the Ards Peninsula.  We really don't know how many Forgey/ Forgie families settled on the Ards Peninsula; but we might assume from the numbers of people with the surname in public records it wasn't many. The earliest Forgey/ Forgies were brought over from Scotland to Ards by Sir Hugh Montgomery, who was part of a private plantation scheme which aimed to plant the area with Protestant Scottish settlers. Gregory Livingstone found a Forgie on a 1606 Rent Roll, which would be the earliest appearance of the name in Irish records. Gregory also gave me this info " mentioned in the Montgomery manuscripts, they came in 1603, with Sir Hugh and helped build the harbour and town of Donaghadee, simply list of surnames of individuals.A James Forgie is mentioned as living in Ballyrolly 1616, a townland 1/2 mile from Millisle." We note here the same place names as mentioned by our match's family. Due to heavy record losses it's nearly impossible to trace a family back to the 1600's so we can only guess that our family may have descended from these early Forgeys.

Nathaniel Forgy Rent Roll 1690's Ards Co. Down, Ire

The Forgeys and Slavery

Former Forgey Slaves

I remember back when Helen Irene Forgey visited our family in the early 1990s and told our family about our origins. When she said the family was originally from Tennessee I was quite surprised. I wondered whether the family had anything to do with slavery? It looks like only one of my direct ancestors owned a slave, namely Andrew Forgey born in Ireland. His slave was listed on Andrew's Will and his name was Bacchus. He was Willed to sons Andrew and Hugh Forgey to share. 

Andrew's son James, and his line, were the largest slave holders in the Forgey family. Although they would have been considered small slave holders. The slaves consisted mainly of single family groups. The Census describes two former Forgey slaves as Mulatto, so I wonder if they might have Forgey blood? There was also a mulatto boy?

Mary Forgey 1870 Census Mulatto

Margaret Forgey Mulatto 1870 Census

 From James Forgey's 1831 Will "Item 10. I leave my yellow boy (yellow would be mulatto)  Joseph and his wife Peggy to my beloved wife during her life, and at her decease for them and their issue to be equally divided amongst my daughters, and it is my request that James would keep them at a moderate price and for them not (to be) separated themselves, but their children may be divided between the girls." From his son James R. Forgey's 1853 Will: , "and also that each of my daughters have two servants girls to be selected by my wife. Given under my hand and seal the date above written." From his wife Raechal's will : "Manerva and Matilda Forgey and my own daughter Susan Forgey, have each one negro girl"..."James R. Forgey Jr. the sum of six thousand dollars in cash or negroes belonging to my Estate".

An interesting description of slavery in Tennessee can be found in "Tennessee a Guide to the State". According to this account: "The lot of the Tennessee slave was perhaps less unfortunate than that of many of his brethren. Tennessee's slave code guaranteed the Negro shelter, food, clothing, and medical attention. It protected him when he ceased to be useful, gave him the right to contract for his freedom, and in 1835 granted him the right of trial by jury - a privilege accorded to slaves in only four other States."

Don't know what happened to the former slaves who took the name Forgey? Don't know whether any descendants still carry the name Forgey? Joe Forgey's family seemed to be the only remaining African American family in the area in 1920 (Joseph and Margaret were names handed down in that family. James Forgey's slaves, husband and wife, were Joseph and Margaret).

Joe Forgey Family Mulatto 1920 US Census Knox County, TN

Andrew and the 2 Alexanders

Mystery still not solved. I've tried all of the traditional records but still no definitive relationship between these men found? My assumption has been that Alexander Forgey of Washington County, Virginia is the father of both Alexander and Andrew of Knox County, Tennessee (Alexander Forgey later migrated to Tippecanoe, IN, and Andrew to Maury County, TN).
Here are some reasons why I think Alexander and Andrew are closely related and may have been brothers. Both Alexander and Andrew purchased land from James Forgey (apparently a relative) on the same day in 1801. They apparently each bought half of James's 500 acre land grant. Alexander Forgey married Elizabeth Sawyers in Knox County, TN in 1805. Andrew and Alexander both witnessed a Sawyer's family document. The document they witnessed is Hannah Sawyers Will dated 27 December 1806. Apparently she was a sister-in-law of John Sawyers, Elizabeth's father. Andrew also was an executor for another  Sawyers. He was the administrator of Betsy Sawyers Will in 1818 Maury County, TN.

Here is why I think Alexander Forgey might be the father of these two men. It is assumed that Alexander living in Washington County in the late 18th century is a brother of Andrew of  Hawkins County, TN. He may be the same man who is listed with Andrew Forgey in Cumberland County, PA in the early 1770's . If so he would have been old enough to be Andrew and the younger Alexander Forgey's  father. We know Alexander Forgey of Washington County,Va was an adult in 1783 when he appeared on a taxlist. Only those over 21 were listed. We know Andrew Forgey was over 45 as listed on the 1820 Census Maury County, TN. So he was born before 1775. There is disagreement as to where he was born. A great grandson stated Ireland in a County Biography sketch. A son said Pennsylvania on the 1880 Census. Another son stated he was born in Maryland on the 1880 Census. These birthplaces given on the Census's seem to echo their mother's birthplaces, and is likely not accurate. However Pennsylvania would make sense if this were Alexander's son because we know he lived there in the 1770's, at the time when Andrew was born. Unfortunately since Andrew died in the early 1820's we do not have a Census entry with his birthplace.

James G. Forgey great-grandson of Andrew Forgey states he was born in Ireland and so were his grandparents?

John H. Forgey, Andrew's son, stated he was born in Pennsylania along with his mother

Andrew's son Samuel Scott Forgey 1880 Census says he was born in Maryland,

We do however have a Census birthplace entry for Alexander Forgey which states he was born in Virginia. There seems to be universal agreement regarding his birthplace. The family bible also states he was born 1779 in Virginia. All of the entries I have found for his children seem to agree. It is known that the likely brother of Alexander Senoir, Andrew, was in Virginia in 1779 according to a court case in Washington County, VA. 

Alexander Forgey 1850

Family Bible entry for Alexander Forgey

So we have a definite link between the Junior Alexander and Virginia. If he wasn't born there he certainly had a memory of living there early in his childhood. There were other Forgeys living in Virginia in the 1700s. Robert Forgey of Dumfries was the earliest. This family generally used the Forgie spelling. Daniel seemed to be the only surviving son of Robert. There was also a Joseph Forgay named in a Will in Augusta County, VA. The Sawyers family lived in Augusta County, VA. Don't know if there is any connection? Could not find any other references to Forgeys in Augusta County, only a single reference. Hugh Forgey who later settled in Kentucky was married in Greenbier, VA in 1786. With very few records for these areas before 1800 it is difficult to establish who the father of Alexander and Andrew was. Based on proximity and interactions between these men and the Hawkins County, Tennessee line, I still lean in that direction.

Reference to a Joseph Forgay in Augusta County, VA dont' know the year?

Interpreting Taxlists

I finally received my Washington County, VA Taxlist microfilm from Salt Lake City. I had some problems interpreting these lists. Some of the lists have column titles with detailed names. Other taxlists have columns without names. I copied the pages with Alexander Forgey's entries and should have noticed the absence of column heading on some of the lists. There may have been headings on previous pages?
I found a nice explanation of these lists at a family website which I copied as an image (see above). I agree with this person that some of the info can be conflicting. It does appear that who's taxed  and what's taxed could change from year to year. Also I have not been able to find a list of who might be exempt? I have not been able to find any websites with early Virginia tax statutes which would help me to understand the lists better.
It was very disappointing not being able to find Andrew Forgey, husband of Eleanor Randall, in any of these lists. The 1787 taxlist seemed to point to the possibility that the male in Alexander's household was Andrew. Since the 1786 and previous lists contain the names of only males over 21 he would likely not have been old enough to be listed. The 1788 taxlist does note the number of males over 16; so there should be someone over 16 noted in Alexander's household but there is not. If indeed the 1787 list noted Andrew than possibly he left his father's household to work on another farm or was a member of the Militia. I am not sure who might have been exempt from taxation so he may have been exempt? Another possibility is the person noted was a slave belonging to Alexander's wife Anne named Jane? He was only married to Anne briefly around this time. Also so many taxlists with only one tithable per household leads me to believe there may have been some deception, and some households may not have devulged all tithables.

1794 Taxlist Alexander Forgey

Every year from 1788 to 1793 lists only one tithable in Alexander's household. In 1794 three are noted, but one year later only one is noted which is very perplexing? I came to the conclusion that Alexander G. Forgey was the son of the Alexander. He was born in July of 1779 in Virginia according to a family bible. So Alexander Forgey the younger would not have been 16 in 1793 and would not have been noted. Alexander also would not appear in the 1795 list either because he turned sixteen a few months after the April taxes were collected. I was not able to establish any connections between all these men using the taxlists.  Alexander sold his property in 1795 and does not appear on the taxlists again. It is unknown what happened to him after the sale of his property. Hopefully something will surface to clear all this up.

How the Forgeys earned their Bread

Cecil Clair Forgey's Store in Freetown, IN

The occupations of the Forgeys reflect the era they lived in. The earliest Forgeys to settle America were generally farmers; a typical occupation for that era. Early America was a nation of Farmers and cheap land attracted those engaged in this pursuit in the old world. Many Forgey families owned large tracts of land. Some of these purchases can be found at the BLM site. According to wikipedia in 1870 70-80 percent of the population was involved in agriculture. 

The Forgeys Scots-Irish heritage can be seen in the occupations of the Forgey immigrant generation. The Scots-Irish in Ireland were often associated with the textile trade. Robert Forgy of PA was a weaver by trade. William Forgy also an immigrant to PA was a Tailor. Whiskey making was another skill which the Scots Irish brought to America with them. Andrew Forgey was convicted of selling liquor without a license and above the rates in late 18th Century Virginia.The Forgey's supplemented their farming income in fields such as Whiskey making, Blacksmithing and Tanning. Such jobs were often a sideline to farming. It looks like Archibald Forgey of Scott County, VA did blacksmith's work. My ancestor Hugh Forgey of Jackson County, IN worked as a Tanner.

By the 1880's a shift was occurring which can be seen when studying Forgey Census records. There is a gradual shift from farming to other modern occupations. Some of the earliest alternative occupations can be found in the mining industry such as coal and metals mining. James Forgey was a quartz miner at the Saw -Tooth Mining company in Idaho. My ancestor Andrew Forgey's sons  Clark and Elisha migrated to Colorado where mining was the primary source of employment. Clark worked as a Teamster and his mother cooked for the miners.

New forms of transportation also led to new job types. Frank Forgey of Craighead Arkansas worked as a fireman on a Locomotive in 1900, and by 1920 he worked his way up to engineer. James Forgey of  Hamblen Tennessee either owned or worked at an auto dealership in the 1930's.

New technology led to many new job catagories. The phonograph led to  an increase in the number of music stores. Harland Forgey of Hamblen, Tennessee either owned or was employed by a music store in 1920. James Forgey of Hawkins County, TN line seems to have been the most prosperous. James had invested in land early on. He owned large tracts of land. His descendants inherited much of the land and parlayed the profits into other investments. Some of the profits were used for education. So this line of the Forgey family was able to take advantage of opportunities available to those with an education.  According to the 1880 Census James R. Forgey was a Stock Trader. By 1900 he is listed as Bank President.

The propensity towards litiagation in this country also resulted in a large legal bureaucracy. James Forgey of Iowa became a lawyer but was later imprisoned for larceny. Several Forgey were Justices of the Peace; one of which was Archibald Forgey of Scott County, VA.
The booming comumer culture of the early 20th Century led to an increase in the number of merchants.  Many Forgey family members were employed as salesmen. A few also were entrepreneurs opening shops of their own. My great uncle Cecil Clair Forgey ran a small store in Freetown, Indiana.

The Rise of Peer Culture

Popular among his peers David Shields Forgey belonged to the Pan-hellenic Council, Sigma Alpha-Epsilon ,  The Eddies, Mcallie Club, Tennessee Club

Searching for the descendants of James Forgey I found yearbooks from the early 20th century with entries for two of his descendants. Looking through these brought to mind my study of the rise of peer culture during this era. I think that subject is fascinating. The move from the Victorian era to the modern era can be seen when you look at early twentieth century yearbooks.

Victorian society was very strict and rigid. The parents of Louise Taylor Forgey and David Forgey were brought up in a different world. A place where children were expected to remain silent and assist the family on the farm when needed. Extreme modesty in dress was stressed for women. These rigid standards caused the next generation to seek liberation.

The middle classes, like David and Louise's family, and upper classes were the first to embrace the new modern ethos of this peer culture society. The parents of David and Louise may have embraced or at least were aware of the new child rearing techniques being advocated in books. Children at this time became centers of attention for families, whereas, before daily tasks for survival were the focus of family energy. Families were freed from time consuming daily tasks by new labor saving devices. Now the nurturing, emotional and intellectual growth of children could become the focus of families. Child development became a popular field of study, opposing theories were debated in the press. It was felt by some that mothers were becoming too indulgent and permissive. Although some of the new theorists felt rigid structure stifled the creative development of children. The progressive educational movement popular when David and Louise were children also stressed encouragement of creativity in children as opposed to rote learning.

These products of the new child rearing techniques were given freedom from responsibility for a much longer time than earlier generations. Middle class teenagers did not have to help provide for the family anymore. A growing number of high schools and colleges in the early 20th century allowed them to continue their education, and as a result they spent more time with peers than family. 

Louise Forgey and brother David were club joiners. Louise is
pictured  here as a member of the Kodak Club.

The more lax upbringing of these children is reflected in the later behavior of these individuals. Previous dress codes became more and more lax along with moral standards. Teenagers and young adults wanting to assert their independence tried to set themselves apart from their parents generation by adopting fads and new dress styles. A culture of  conformity also sprang up. To be considered a part of the peer group you had to fit in and conform to their culture. Fitting in meant joining clubs in school. Athletics became a way to achieve status on campus.

Peer culture sometimes led to irresponsible behavior. As a counter to this YMCA and YWCA clubs were formed.

The peer culture of teenagers and young adults did help prepare them for the modern business world where networking became important to success. (It's nice too be able to put my research into a famiy perspective.) 

52 Weeks of Personal Genealogy & History - Grandparents' House

My Forgey grandparents purchased the family home and 2 acres of property in about 1939. It was located at 248 4th avenue in La Puente, California (by the way another unrelated Forgey family lived on 4th Street in the same town, which led to confusion with their mail lol). My grandfather Charles Forgey, as stated in the 1930 Census, worked as a carpenter after leaving the Marines. He built the first family home in La Cresenta, California. The family lost that house during the Depression. They rented homes in Glendale California until they saved enough to buy a home and some property. My grandfather used his carpentry skills to fix up the little old farmhouse they bought. He added two rooms on basically by himself; but hired an electrician for the wiring.
By the time I was born in 1963 my grandparents had been living in that house about 24 years; and the house was filled with mementos and memories. My grandfather was born and raised on a farm in Indiana and had a green thumb. The family had a little truck style farm there on 4th avenue for many years. They also kept some small livestock such as chickens and goats. I fondly recall the fruit trees my grandfather planted on the property. I remember visiting there in the Summer and eating tons of mulberries, plums and apricots. The fruit was delicious and much tastier than you can find in the supermarket.
I remember the old timey kitchen with it's red checked curtains and old concrete or granite counter tops.The family always ate at the antique oak table in the kitchen.  My grandmother,Graciela, was a great cook and loved to cook; so spent many hours in that kitchen. She also loved people too, and invited many friends over for meals.
I also recall  the old bathroom with it's old fixtures.The one bathroom was fairly roomy for a small house with a large claw foot tub.
My grandfather was a hunter and fisherman. He devoted a whole room to memorabilia connected with these pursuits. He hung animal heads on the walls and stuffed birds.  I also remember his gun cabinet. I would sometimes take a nap in that room when I was a baby lol.
Something that really stands out in my mind when I think of the house is all of the family pictures my grandmother loved to display. I was told that my grandparents had a picture of their baby daughter Isis Forgey taken after she died. I was a little afraid of coming upon that picture. I don't think they ever displayed that one? Most of the pictures were of the many grandchildren. I loved seeing my own picture which was one of the largest on display. My father would always say who is that monkey on the wall :).

My Picture from my Grandparents house

Another prominent picture in the house that fascinated me was a picture of my great-grandmother Isis Forgey which hung in the living room. I always admired it. Just a couple of weeks ago one of my cousins was cleaning out her garage and found the large framed picture. She asked if I wanted it which of course I did and I am thrilled to have it. 

The house remained in the family until about 1978. When the property was sold the house was torn down. At least I still have the pictures and fond memories.

My Great-Grandmother's picture (Isis Browning-Forgey) from my grandparents' house

DNA and the Percentages

I've been looking at the database set up for the descendants of Benjamin Franklin. Of course they were able to construct a massive DNA project. Looking at this site has helped me understand what DNA can do for family historians. The chart (see above) with the predicted relationship percentages was especially helpful. Now I can see you can predict relationships 24 or more generations back, and also look at more recent generations. I did notice that mutations did not happen frequently.

It would be nice to have a known relative of James Forgey or Andrew Forgey tested. I have been trying again to find descendants. This is what I came up with.

James Forgey born 1766 Ireland had one son James R. Forgey

James R. Forgey  had two sons who left male children Gabriel and James R.

Gabriel Forgey's sons:

James N. Forgey

Gabriel Forgey he had two sons Versel Ray Forgey and Gabriel R. Forgey 

James N.  had two sons who lived in Bristol, Tennessee Charles and James Forgey. Charles died in the 1990s I don't know if he left any children.

James R. Forgey Sr.'s sons:

James R Forgey b. 1886 died 1931 Didn't leave any children? Could not find any listed on Census

Frank Harland Forgey b. 1894 d. 1968 Only had two daughters Marion and Catherine

David S. Forgey b. 1898 Was in WWII and stated at that time he had no children?

The Complexities of DNA

The envelope with the DNA Kit

After a great deal of reading about the different DNA tests available I came to the conclusion that the Y test would be the most useful. I ordered the Y 37 marker test. The autosomal test is too general to be useful at this point. I decided to test someone in the line of the Forgey family I have established a circumstantial case for. I am hoping someone in my line will be tested soon. If this person decides not to then I will have my uncle tested.
I am not sure exactly how many generations back I might be able to go with this test? It seems from what I read it establishes a family relationship 8 generations ago with a high degree of certainty.  Hopefully there won't be too many mutations in the markers tested. Over the generations mutations occur occasionally . I am hoping for at least a 35 out of 37 match between my family and John Forgey's descendants.
I am hoping two tests will breakdown my brickwall. I have been searching for other male descendants of Andrew Forgey and Margaret Reynolds in case I need more individuals for my DNA study. I found out there were few male descendants in their son James Forgey's line. He had only one son. Their son John Forgey had the largest number of male descendants. Most of his descendants still live around Chattanooga Tennessee. I don't know where the descendants of Andrew and Margaret's son Andrew settled? They lived in the Shelby County, Tennessee area in the late 1800's. I am not sure if there are any male descendants living now? They don't appear to be in that area now.
I should have no problem finding males in the Andrew Forgey and Anna Roller line to test. There are a number of male descendants in that line. A few years ago someone compiled a list of all know descendants in that line. It was 42 pages and listed a number of males. This list wasn't even complete.
I have been talking about a Forgey DNA study for years. Finally it seems like I am making progress in that direction. I have found two, Forgie and Forgy, results already posted on the internet to compare with as soon as I get the results. Hoping for a breakthrough soon!

Now for something a little different

I thank Liz Tapley the author of the blog My Tapley Tree... and it's Branches , and Randy Seaver Genea-Musings ,  for the chart idea. I made an ethnicity chart for myself. My ethnic breakdown is certainly more complicated than this. I probably have some Native American ancestry, and my Nicaraguan/Spanish line includes some German. My Austro-Hungarian line is likely also Jewish. Which brings me to a quandary should I take an autosomal DNA test, or have my uncle's Y DNA tested? When I started out with my DNA research in 1998 my primary question was whether the Kapple family was substantially Jewish as far as Ethnic origin. I was never really able to verify this using available records. It sounds like I might be able to get a percentage of Jewish ancestry with the autosomal test. On the other hand I have been doing lots of research on my Forgey line and would like to verify what I have found in records for the family. I mainly have a circumstantial case on this line. I would like to buy both tests but can't afford to now; it's either one of the other. Family Tree Finder is having a sale which only lasts until July 21st. So I will have to make a decision
quick.

Roller Church Records

I received a reply from the Reformation Lutheran Church in New Market, VA regarding their records for the Roller family. Unfortunately Anna Roller was not baptized there. The older children were. This is what they wrote:

I just got an email from our historian. Here is the news...we have what we think are complete records, but Anna's baptism is not recorded in any that we have. 

We've found Jacob and wife Eva Roller had three children baptized: Maria Magdalina, Johannes, and Eliner. Grandparents were Johannes and Catarina Roller. 

These entries are in Davidsburg Church Baptisms 1785-1845, New Market, VA . 
We also have Johannes Rolled, no date.

Our Historian found no cemetery records with those names and suggested you check Rader's church records at the Heritage Center, Dayton, VA. She thinks she saw Roller records there.


According to the snippet above Lewis Zirkle donated the land for Davidsburg Church now Reformation Lutheran church. The Rollers may not have lived in New Market, but had their children baptized there because of the family connection? 
I have priced around the cost of getting a copy of these records at several places. The library of Virginia has the manuscripts of these records. They want $25 for a copy.  I've decided to order a microfilm copy from the FHL and save $20. This is a description of the records: http://lva1.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/F/ITAU4IQ1GUUP4H2V5UGDP9LBCQVIEKT41XNLSD2UMJ3BKKCVJN-15204?func=full-set-set&set_number=005332&set_entry=000004&format=999 

Alex Forgey's Son?

1787 Tax List For Washington County VA

A piece of info which could be a major breakthrough regarding Alexander Forgey and his line surfaced this week.  A descendant of Alexander G. Forgey brought a 1787 Washington County Tax List to my attention. A very useful bit of info was provided on this list. A column was set up to record males between the ages of 16 and 21. They were not identified by name, only the number of those in that age range living in household were provided. One male in that age range lived in Alexander Forgey's household. We presume this is a son, but with no ID don't know for sure?  I have ordered an  FHL Microfilm with tax lists from 1782 to 1805. I hope that one of these lists contains the name of Andrew Forgey at some point (the film is on back order, so I may have to wait awhile to see it). 

The 1787 and 1797 Washington County, Virgina Tax Lists are free online. They are selling CDs with the intervening years for $20.00 apiece at this site. No Forgeys appear on the 1797. Alexander Forgey sold his 300 acre land grant in 1795. It appears that the family relocated elsewhere at that point in time. I am thinking they migrated to Knox County, TN, near family. 

It was thought by the author of the book A genealogical history of the Forgy, Forgey, and Forgie families in America, Lucille Wallace, that Jacob Forgey and Hugh Forgey, sons of Archibald, were Alexander's sons. Archibald's line does not use the name Alexander at all. Instead this family uses the same naming patterns as the Hawkins County, Tennessee Forgeys.

A genealogical history of the Forgy, Forgey, and Forgie families in America,  By Lucille Wallace.

Alex Forgey Washington County, VA

I am doing some research on the presumed brother of  Andrew Forgey b. 1732 i.e. Alexander Forgey. My goal is to find out whether Alexander G. and Andrew are his sons.  He and Andrew apparently migrated to Washington County, VA around the latter part of the 1770's. Washington County, VA research is challenging because of record losses. This snippet from The Annals of Southwest Virginia describes some of the missing records:

I've found very few documents mentioning Alexander Forgey. He married Agnes Meeks in Washington County, VA in 1786. I also found Alexander in the Washington County, VA will book. This entry is not related to a will, but is a bill of sale between himself and his father-in-law Samuel Meek. An image of this is posted above.I interpret the above document as meaning that Alexander Forgey's wife went back to her father? I found an Agnes Forgy marrying a James Rogers on 26 Apr 1789 in Washington County, VA. I don't know whether that is a reference to his daughter? (By the way Anne is a nickname for Agnes) I wondered whether Agnes may have divorced Alexander. This is unlikely because early divorces were legislative and none seem to have been awarded before 1803, and only about half a dozen were awarded for that County after 1803 up until divorce was outlawed in the mid nineteenth century. I checked the Legislative Petition Database  and did not find any references at all to Forgey/Forgy.

The land sale below seems to confirm that he didn't have a wife in 1795. All of the other sales on the page refer to husbands and wives.

Land records are some of the few surviving records for that county. A 1782 Commissioner's Certificate for Alexander refers to the same land as the 1785 Grant Document, and the land sale posted above. The land Grant was awarded to him by then Governor Patrick Henry.  It sounds like he was assigned the commissioner's certificate by someone else. These Certificates were awarded to those who settled the area before 1778.

These are some of my sources for Alexander Forgey.