My DNA Wish List for Santa! Plus link to Our Group

Most wanted DNA  Made my list for Santa and it's all about DNA ;)! Considering we didn't have a DNA project before August 2011 we have made great progress so far! Here is a link to our Group Forgey/Forgy/Forgie: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ForgeyForgyForgie/  Just use the tabs across the top to see other pages. Click the Y DNA drop down menu to see the actual results so far. We should have more results by late December.
We can always use more participants in our Forgey/Forgy & Forgie project. The larger the number of testers the more we can learn. DNA testing requires comparisons between matches, and patterns only come to light after groups of cousins pool results.
Here is my most wanted Y DNA:

1. Forgety line
2. Gabriel Forgey line
3. Archibald Forgey line
4. Alexander Forgey line 
5. Hugh Forgey Bourbon Kentucky line
6. William Forgey supposed French line
7. John Forgy Cumberland, PA line (someone already tested on this line but I am not sure about the results?)
8. Canadian Forgies

I have added in red those who have tested for each line in to the chart below (we are DNA testing to better determine the lines so some of these are guesses). Clinton Forgy has not returned his test yet and is testing in Samuel's line. We need to fill in the empty boxes, and we can use more testers in the Andrew line. Test prices start at $99 for 12 markers. We have a Forgey, Forgy, Forgie group at FT DNA http://www.familytreedna.com/

Click on chart to get better image

Happy Thanksgiving!

Charles and Graciela Forgey Family 1951

This is the Gravy Boat From the picture above, my mother believes it's from the early 1900s.

Made by Ridgeway England

FT DNA Beta + Final DNA comparisons at 37 markers

New beta site and finals to date When I saw that Mike Forgy's 37 marker results came in I noticed major changes to the FT DNA site. Here is the explanation I found posted there:  "Beginning today, 11/21/2011, Project Administrators will have exclusive access to our new myFTDNA 2.0 BETA.  Use the kit links within your project to access the new personal pages." It took me a few minutes to understand the new layout. I like it . There are some new ways to sort results such as by surname. I have to play with this after Thanksgiving to see what else you can do.  I copied some of the new reports below. As you can see below the number of markers mismatched is now posted with the name on the far left hand side.

I was very satisfied with the rest of Mike's results. Here is what we can infer so far with the 3 tests complete:

1. Forgey is a variant spelling of Ferguson. Mike had 11 Ferguson matches and Roger had 5 ( see last two images in this post for Ferguson ONLY matches.
2. There was a mutation in one of Mike's first 12 markers which was not shared by either Darren or Roger or any of the Fergusons which means this is a unique mutation in his line.
3. Two mutations occurred in Darren's line which were not shared by either Roger or Mike. So they are unique to this line and can be used to set them apart.
4. One marker tested in the last set for Mike did not match either Darren or Roger, but did match many Fergusons. So I wonder if Darren and Roger's line's both experienced a mutation at a later date?
5. Larry Laughlin has been a close match to all three men and a perfect match for Mike. This may just be a coincidence or maybe a non paternity event? Some lines do have very few mutations so it's possible he is related before the adoption of fixed surnames?
6. Many of the Forgey/Forgy matches tested positive for the Scottish Clade which I discussed before. So it looks like Roger and Darren will test positive when their results come back in late December (the new beta site shows deep clade results for matches).

We should have more test results by late December. It is odd that Roger and Mike have two marker mismatches and Mike's supposed closer relative Darren mismatched by 4. Hopefully we can clarify this with next set of results; which should be for my uncle.

Mike Forgy 

Mike Forgy

         Mike Forgey 3 marker mismatches   Roger Forgey 3 marker 

    Mike Forgy 4 marker mismatches  Roger Forgey ditto          Darren Forgy ditto

Mike Forgy's Ferguson Matches

Roger Forgey

Comparing Marker Matches so Far

Comparisons so far It sounds like the FT DNA lab was closed for Veterans' Day yesterday; so the rest of Mike's test results have not been posted (I am really anxious to see them!!!). We expect the rest of his results next week.

This is where we are so far. We have a completed test for Roger Forgey representing the Andrew Forgey and Margaret Reynolds line and we have two testers who share a most recent common in 1726 i.e. Samuel Forgey or Forgy. We have completed results for Darren. All three men are confirmed related through DNA testing so far. Roger and Darren share a genetic distance of  2. So they are confirmed to be related. It will be very interesting to see whether the two markers which separate both of them are shared by Mike Forgy? We will then have an idea of when those mutations occurred. After or before 1726? If they happened before then, Roger's line would have shared a common ancestor likely more than 100 year earlier. If the mutation occurred after 1726 they likely shared a common ancestor somewhere around the 1726 era.

It appears that Roger's line experienced fewer mutations in their DNA than Darren's and Mike's lines? I surmise this from the number of matches Roger had with the members of the Ferguson group. Ferguson does seem to be the root name for Forgey. Darren matched some of the same Ferguson group members at a genetic distance of 5. This would mean he is only possibly related to them unless, someone in his line tests closer ( which would mean an extra mutation occurred recently).

Mike Forgy already has a mutation not shared by the others with only 12 markers tested. This mutation occurred after 1726. I am expecting the Fergusons who matched Roger and Darren to resurface again when the rest of Mike's test results come in. 

I've copied all of the match results so far below. Actually Wayne Forgie is also only one marker off Mike at 12 markers (I guess FT DNA only lists those member matches with nearly exact name spellings in this catagory i.e. genetic distance 1. Forgie didn't register as a close spelling?).

Wayne Forgie is also one marker off Mike Forgy.

                                     

          

               Roger Forgey                                             Darren Forgy

    Roger Forgey                          Darren Forgy

       Roger Forgey                                                                                               Darren Forgy had no matches here

        Roger Forgey                                Darren Forgy

William Kappel anti aircraft gun battalion

William Kappel's Grave Netherlands American  Cemetery

Remembering Veterans on Veterans Day 2011 We do honor the sacrifice of all veterans today. I especially honor my Great Uncle William Kappel, who was a member of the 462 Anti Aircraft Gun Battalion. A few years ago I discovered that he was killed in Europe at the end of  WWII. He was buried at the American Cemetery in the Netherlands. I have been unable to find out the circumstances of his death due a fire, and  the loss of those records. When I asked my aunt if she knew anything about his service she said she thought he served in the South Pacific? I have verified that he was indeed buried in Europe, so I assume he was killed there. My father never really said nothing about his aunts and uncles; so I have only discovered most of my info about them through my own research.

The only thing I have been able to glean from my questioning of family and research is that William Kappel was one of  the 11 children of my great-grand parents Frank Kappel and Mary Kurta. He was born in Cudahy, Milwaukee, Wisconsin on 20 Sep 1915. He did marry, and was married when he was killed. Don't know if they had any children? 

My father Robert Kapple was born in 1933. My aunt June said that one Christmas my father got a train set (my father did love trains, and came to California from Chicago, IL by train). She said that my Grandfather Rudolph and his Uncle William hogged the train set on Christmas morning, and my father was upset because he couldn't play with it. In retrospect is nice to know that Uncle William had fun that Christmas with my Dad's train set :).

What can DNA really prove?

What can DNA really prove? I've been mulling that over since receiving test results for another Forgey family line. I had read articles about DNA testing before actually becoming involved myself in August. I had a vague idea of how it would work, and what it would tell me. After two months experience working with results I am getting a much more realistic view of DNA testing for family history.
So far we seem to have a match between Roger Forgey representing the Andrew Forgey, TN, line, and Darren Forgy representing the Samuel Forgey, NC, line. Another person representing the John Forgey line in PA had tested earlier and was not a match. We have at least four other family members who are somewhere in the process of testing, and three others who have at least preliminary results (with 25 markers in for Darren Forgy he is one marker off from Roger Forgey = Genetic distance 1).

What DNA has achieved for us so far:

1. It's confirmed that at least two Forgey lines are related which was impossible to do using traditional genealogy research. They apparently share a common ancestor in Ulster Ireland. We know from our research that the common ancestor link occurred before 1720, which is impossible to document with records.
2. It may have eliminated a relationship with the John Forgy line? Although it is possible that a non   paternity event occurred. It is good practice to have more than one person per line test in case of this kind of event.
3. It has confirmed family tradition i.e. that the family was Scots-Irish.
4. The link between the name Forgey and the name Ferguson has been verified.
5. We have found more distant relations (Gilbert Ferguson, Kenneth Ferguson, George Robert Ferguson, John David Ferguson and Wayne Forgie).
6. A link between our Forgeys and Co. Down Ireland is confirmed. Wayne Forgie's family is from Co. Down.

So what can be expected when we get all of the results back. 

• Comparison of complete sets of results will hopefully give us more data about relationships, and a time frame for the most recent shared ancestor
• A more precise Haplo group which will help confirm or refute a possible French origin or confirm the family had lived in Scotland for thousands of year
• Answer the question regarding whether all the early Forgey/Forgys to settle in America were related or at least come close to answering that question

In conclusion, what DNA can do is tell you is whether you are related to someone at some point in time. It can't tell you exactly when. If you match someone else on every marker except 3 or 4 markers, on a 37 marker test, then you can be reasonably sure the common ancestor lived hundreds of years ago. I was thinking yesterday what if all the Forgeys match perfectly and I can't differentiate the family lines? I remembered that is where all of the research I've collected, and others have shared with me comes in. With 11 years of research on my family line and the DNA test results to back up my assumptions I believe I will have a very well documented accurate family tree when all is said and done. 

Just when I thought I had it figured...a new clade?

The I- M284 subclade I mentioned the subclade I- M284 associated with the British Isles in a previous post. I did not know it was a subclade of M223. I thought these two were totally separate. Below is a chart showing the relationship between the subclades. Roger was placed in the M223 clade by FT DNA. According to the Ferguson DNA project Roger's matches are in the subclade M284? Since there is a 99 percent probability that  Roger is related to Wayne Forgie and Gabriel Ferguson at some point in time he must also share the British Isles clade. It sounds like one of the matches may have upgraded to a deep clade test. This is the way Ft DNA explains the test: "Family Tree DNA now offers its Y-DNA customers Deep Clade tests to determine or confirm the exact subclade or branch of their haplogroup. " It's also possible that differences in 3 markers led to a more specific subclade assignment for one of the other matches? I will contact the Ferguson project and ask about the reason for the M284 subclade assignment?

According to Wikipedia:" I-M284, has been found almost exclusively among the population of Great Britain, which has been taken to suggest that the clade may have a very long history in that island". The Scottish branch of 284 might be 1,500 years old. So Roger's line may have been in Scotland for more than 1,500 years; and possibly as many as 3,000 years ago. So Roger's family may have descended from the ancient Pict population of Scotland.

The Forgeys do seem to match the description of others assigned to this subclade. The M284 subclade is strongly associated with western Scotland. "The Fergus(s)on in this group show a strong connection with Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire. Sir James Fergusson of Kilkerran wrote: "there is some evidence strongly suggesting that the south-western Fergussons, living in Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire, took their name from Fergus, Prince of Galloway, a much less shadowy personage, who was an important figure in the reigns of David I and Malcolm IV." By less shadowy he was refering to Fergus Mor and the attendant Dalriada genealogy."

My goal now is to find the exact subclade for the Forgey. I really need to verify the Ferguson groups conclusion.